Don Williams: Elevating the Customer Experience to a Level of Love

Don Williams, author, business executive, keynote speaker, business development consultant, and podcast host, has become one of the most sought-after entrepreneurs in America, with his unique blend of business acumen and personal charm. With an extensive background in entrepreneurship, Don is well-known for his wealth building principles. He specializes in offering professional sales training and consulting services to help entrepreneurs succeed.

He has more than three decades of marketing and sales experience in the B2C, B2B, and B2G industries, and has worked with a number of well-known customers to help them acquire traction and scale their businesses.

Don concentrates on offering professional training to people through a tried-and-true unique and personalized method. His business strategies, which center on educating entrepreneurs on how to be successful, have gained him mass recognition.

Getting “I do” from potential clients

“I see business from the metaphor of romance and dating. Courting is like marketing and saying I do is winning the sale. Marriage is customer experience.”

Don has a proven track record as an expert in customer service. At 19 years old, he became the top sales rep in the country among 450 people. His reputation as a business head has brought him to work with over half of the Fortune 500 companies.

How does he get the “I do” from his customers? Among his best skills is always having an ability to put himself in their shoes and understand how they feel about their purchase and what will make them content. “I see things from the other person’s point of view and I communicate as such and I truly want what’s best for other people. And they just buy. You almost can’t keep them from buying when you approach it from that standpoint.”

According to Don, some companies struggle to sell the amount of business they want to sell for two reasons. The first is a lack in “dates” or qualified leads, which either means there isn’t enough engagement from potential customers or they’re not reaching out enough. Problem two, if they do manage to get a consistent stream of qualified leads, they need to become a better “dater”.

Authored books

Don is a renowned bestselling author of a few books namely: D.I.Y Outbound Contact Center Toolbox (2017),  Romancing Your Customer (2017), and Build Your Big Legacy (2021), and Gratitude: Stories from Our Hearts (2021).

The D.I.Y. Outbound Contact Center Toolbox is a must-read for any marketer looking to start their own call center or manage it. Don gives advice on where one should look for lists or compliance tools, which scripting language will work best, what technology platforms are out there, as well as staff hiring and management.

His second book, Romancing Your Customer, became an international hot seller. This interactive book will teach you the secrets to lower cost acquisitions, higher conversions and increased customer life cycles.  If you want to attract the right clients and keep them longer, make romancing your customers a priority.

Meanwhile, Build Your Big Legacy covers how legacy isn’t just about finances and passing your wealth, but also living an intentional life so you can leave behind something greater than yourself. You’ll discover why planning for your BIG legacy is easier than playing small. “I think we can be anything we want to be. We just can’t be everything we want to be,” Don expressed.

Lastly, his most recent book, Gratitude: Stories from Our Hearts, is a compilation with 20 co-authors. From heart-wrenching accounts to lighthearted moments, each author’s account provides a new perspective on gratitude and how we can be more grateful in our lives than ever before.

Importance of face-to-face communication

As a keynote speaker, Don believes that face-to-face communication is king. We are living in a time when new communication methods such as texting, emailing and video conferencing are rapidly replacing traditional face-to-face communication. While Zoom, Microsoft Teams, Google Meet and Skype have facilitated the expansion of activities to a wider global reach, face-to-face communication is still key to building strong relationships.

“When we’re close enough, our energy mingles, and that creates another level of depth in communication.”

Comparing it to dating and romance relationships, Don said, “If you were going to propose, probably a text would be the wrong way to do it. Email would only be an inch better and still horribly wrong. A phone call is better, woefully inadequate though. Video con, okay. If she’s in Afghanistan and he’s at home in Iowa and she’s deployed, okay. I get it.” But the most valuable and complex conversations are those we want to have face-to-face because the richness of experience is unparalleled. It’s what allows us to fully understand each other.

Embracing social media

Don admits to being a late bloomer as he calls himself the last man in America to get a cellphone and get on Facebook. So how did he go from having only a thousand followers to now, almost 30,000 followers in LinkedIn?

“I think if you’re in business, you have to embrace social media. It makes no sense not to. And then if you’re going to embrace social media, I think words are important. I think text is important. Audio is amazingly important,” he says.

With the onset of the pandemic and cancellation of virtual events, He also decided to launch his own podcast in March 2021 called The Proven Entrepreneur. Now, I might just think he’s fully become an expert in this as he even shares his favorite tech tools in business. What a glow-up!

Curious about it? Tune in to the Fascinating Entrepreneurs podcast to listen to my full conversation with him!

Wise words from Don: “I’m a big believer in this, start ugly. If you don’t have everything figured out, start anyway.”

Transcript from Podcast

[00:00:00] Don: Video’s number two. Number one is face to face 42 inches apart because when we’re that close, and I’ve talked about this in two of the books, the communication pyramid, the more complex and or the more valuable the conversation, the farther up the pyramid, we should go.

[00:00:22] Natasha: Welcome to FASCINATING ENTREPRENEURS.

How do people end up becoming an entrepreneur? How do they scale and grow their businesses? How do they plan for profit? Are they in it for life? Are they building to exit? These and a myriad of other topics will be discussed to pull back the veil on the wizardry of successful and FASCINATING ENTREPRENEURS.

If you’d like to know how to scale and grow your business and make more profit sign up on my website, natashamiller.co to get on the wait list for my entrepreneurial masters course.

On today’s show I talked to Don Williams about sales, romancing your customers, and the tech tools he loves.

[00:01:14] Don: Most of my time is consulting with companies to help raise their revenue. So I’m a sales consultant in addition to my extracurricular entrepreneurial activities.

[00:01:26] Natasha: And what are those extracurricular activities?

[00:01:29] Don: So for over 30 years, I’ve been in the contact center business. So we place outbound and answer inbound phone calls, also live chat, and email. Typically for Fortune 500 companies, but not always. And we’re one of the last of the Mohicans and that we do outbound cold call business to business lead generation.

And there’s just not too many of us still standing, who work in that space.

[00:02:00] Natasha: What is an example of the type of business that you’re cold calling for? What service?

[00:02:05] Don: Oh my gosh. It will work for every service.

[00:02:08] Natasha: Wait, for mine too?

[00:02:11] Don: Yes, for every product, every service, every experience. So here’s a really good example.

We have an engineering firm who provides services to specific industries which include the most mammoth companies on the planet and we cold call and set appointments and book them on the biz dev team’s calendar for them to have more meaningful conversations to enter into that client’s sales model. And you can do that in any industry and you can do it yourself. You can.

[00:02:54] Natasha: If you can find hunters, good luck with that.

[00:02:56] Don: Yeah, you can. It’s possible to do it yourself. Most people would say it’s hard and it’s not fun, but you can do it yourself or you can cheat. And sometimes it’s worth winning, it’s worth cheating. And you just hire a company like mine, or it doesn’t have to mine. Can be like mine. And let them do that because that’s what they do every day. And so they don’t really view it as hard.

[00:03:21] Natasha: You’re solving a problem. You’re solving a pain point. So are you buying a targeted list after interviewing them and coming up with who their target demographic is?

[00:03:31] Don: Great question. And the answer is, sometimes the client has their own list.

Sometimes we need to procure a list from a list broker. Sometimes we need to do a hybrid. We need to take the client’s internal list and the acquired list and the dupe and merge purge and build a custom list. And sometimes we need to go to a social platform. So now I live in the B2B space. So we typically go to LinkedIn and let’s find it.

Everybody’s name that has the right title at a company you want to talk to. That’s a great way. Almost everybody who’s anybody in business to business is in LinkedIn, the downside is there’s no email and there’s no phone number on about 99% of those LinkedIn records. So then we have humans research and add the email and the phone number.

And so it all sounds hard, but I told my sales consulting clients this, selling is really hard, unless you know what you’re doing. And then it’s really easy.

[00:04:41] Natasha: It is the the systems and processes. I assume it’s very systematized, but having the wherewithal to continue to do it on a day-to-day basis.

I really didn’t expect to talk about this business as much, but I do want to know one more thing. So for this cold calling, what is the percentage that you’re able to get a booking? I won’t go into the actual turning it into a client, but is it 1%? Is that a win?

[00:05:11] Don: That is a great question. And with a client of ours, we would probably reframe that just a little bit in that the percentage is irrelevant.

Okay. If I make a hundred phone calls, I probably do not get connected to the appropriate party 85 times. Maybe I only get connected 15 times, and maybe I only am able to generate a lead one out of every 30 or 40 people. But the real metric is this, what is my cost per acquired lead? What is my conversion on said acquire leads?

What is my cost per acquired sale? What is my margin on said acquire sale? And what is my ROI? And so people who come from, and I’m a big believer in direct mail, have mailed a couple billion pieces of mail in my life, but people who come from the direct mail world or the email world, they want to look at take rate.

What percentage of the people I emailed or mailed accepted my offer? And for those communication channels, I agree that’s the way to do it. But on call center work, I don’t think it matters.

[00:06:26] Natasha: Interesting. And so how much of that business is relevant in your coaching business?

[00:06:33] Don: Interesting question. So most of our contact center business is separate from the consulting business.

Though occasionally, a consulting client, so I wrote a book titled Romancing Your Customer, and I see business from the metaphor. No, I don’t see. I see business from the metaphor of romance and dating. And courting is like marketing and saying I do is winning the sale and marriage is customer experience.

So I think companies that are not selling the amount of business they want to sell, I think they have one of two, maybe both problems. But one, they need more dates. They don’t have a consistent stream of qualified leads. And so they’re never going to get married because they only have a date every, the third Sunday after the Vernal Equinox in an odd year.

And they’re wondering why they don’t make any sales or make enough sales. I’m like we got to get some dates in here. So that’s problem one. Problem two, if they do have a consistent stream of qualified leads and most clients do not, but if they do have a consistent stream of qualified leads, then what they need is they need to be a better dater.

And so the consulting side, I basically teach people how to be a better dater and I’ll even go on dates with them.

[00:07:59] Natasha: I have an idea for you. Don, have you ever thought about reverse engineering, romancing your customer and teaching people how to date based on business tactics?

[00:08:11] Don: No. And that may be Jean Folks, we may have just witnessed pure genius, but I will say this.

I’m fortunate enough that I get to speak from a lot of stages and do a lot of workshops and work with a bunch of clients and in the romancing your customer curriculum so to speak, I get many people who reach back out to me and say, “Don, that works at home too.”

And I’m like, shocker. So on the sales consulting side, it’s more dates, better dates.

Mainly I get engaged to help people become better daters. And sometimes a client will say, “Hey, you know what, I need more dates too.” And so then we help on both sides, but they are separate entities. They’re separate businesses. And while there is some cooperation and collaboration, they’re independent of each other.

[00:09:10] Natasha: I know that at some point in the very near future, I will be calling you outside of these podcasts we’re doing to talk to you about your consulting and why wouldn’t I want to engage with the mining of potential dates. And in fact, I might need your help on both personal and-

[00:09:29] Don: We can talk about whichever you like, and you’ll definitely see the bleed over because I can’t keep romance out of business.

And I really can’t keep business out of romance. And many people who know me are like, Lita must be the luckiest woman on the planet. Not true. I’m the luckiest man. Obviously I read my book. I know the words to use and you got to put your heart behind it. If you don’t mean it doesn’t work.

[00:09:56] Natasha: That’s true. That’s true. Okay. Thank you for that. That went down a whole tangent that I didn’t expect, but that’s good. So I want to talk about your books and your podcasts. So you have Romancing Your Customer. You have other books?

[00:10:09] Don: Oh, yeah. So my first book I wrote and I wrote this from a rotten place in my heart. So this is the DIY Outbound Contact Center Toolbox.

It took me about a year. I sat down to a keyboard. It was brutally painful. When we finally published, it was like having a baby. I said, unkind things. I wanted more drugs. It was messy. Nobody wanted to be around me. I was a horrible book mother. But about 30 days later, I knew I wanted a second book.

[00:10:41] Natasha: You do forget the pain and anguish of giving birth. I can attest to that.

[00:10:46] Don: There you go. I think every woman with more than child.

[00:10:49] Natasha: Even with epidural.

[00:10:51] Don: Yeah. And so that’s when I knew I’d been involved with customer experience and selling and marketing my whole life. And I’ve always been one of those people where they’re like, man, you’re the best salesperson I ever met. And I’m like I’ll just say this, people love to buy from me and I just let them.

I don’t have a vulcan mind trick and here’s a tip. I see things from the other person’s point of view and I communicate as such and I truly want what’s best for other people. And they just buy. You almost can’t keep them from buying when you approach it from that standpoint, not everybody. But by far my first job, I was top sales person in the entire US out of 450 salespeople.

I was 19 years old. The company average is they sold one out of every three prospects. I sold two out of every three prospects and so much so that they accused me of cheating. And I’m like, I don’t know how I can sign the contract and give you their credit card or their check. I just don’t even know how I can do that.

So anyhow, the second book is Romancing. That book got me on stages and took my life down a separate path. The third book is Build Your Big Legacy and it’s about most people have legacy. They think about finances and that sort of can be part of your legacy, but it’s really about intentional living and what you want to leave behind with the people who knew and experienced you.

And I know you are a practitioner of intentional living and I am too. And I think we can be anything we want to be. We just can’t be everything we want to be.

[00:12:31] Natasha: Not at the same time, that’s for sure.

[00:12:34] Don: Yeah. So it just takes a little intention and then I’m so glad you asked about books because a book number four is coming out and yeah, let’s see if that plays.

[00:12:45] Natasha: Gratitude, Stories From Our Hearts?

[00:12:49] Don: Stories From Our Hearts. And so this book is a compilation. I have 20 co-authors who all shared an intimate story of where they expressed or experienced power of gratitude in their life. And five years ago, I began my own daily practice of intentional gratitude.

And I was at an entrepreneurial organization conference in Bangkok, Thailand, and I listened to this really smart lady talk about human performance and emotion. And how we perform at our very best, whether we’re a baseball player or a gymnast or a musician or a sales guy. When we express or experience gratitude at our very worst, when we express or experience shame.

And so I literally came home, went to Home Depot, bought this bucket. This is a different card. First card wore out, says gratitude. And I carried this bucket with me everywhere I went for six months. I didn’t carry it to the bathroom, but it went in the car, went in the truck, it sat in the den. It’s always sits on my credenza.

If you’ll see any of my videos, you’ll be like, you always have that silver bucket behind you. I’m like I do. And so the interesting thing about gratitude is, the more you practice gratitude, the more grateful you become. And so I thought I was going to share the power of gratitude with my leadership team of my company.

And one of my employees, we do this exercise every Monday called “one good thing” where everybody stands up and shares one thing they’re grateful for, and it takes 30 seconds, maybe 60. And it’s typically like “My car broke down last week and I just need new tires.” “It’s not a new tie rod,” or “My mom called me and I’m gonna talk to my mom.”

And it’s something that, to the rest of us seems like, yeah, whatever, but that’s how gratitude works. You’re grateful for what you’re grateful for. Okay. And even though it may seem small to me, it may be huge to you. So one week one of our teammates stood up and said, “Grandson was born last week. And he lived an hour.” And tragic, horrible. There’s nothing you can say about that. But she said, “I’m grateful because he did live an hour.”

And so his mother and father, I, his grandfather and the other grandparents all got to meet him and hold him and tell him how much we loved him. And so I thought I was going to share the power of gratitude with my team, and I think what happens most of the times the teacher ends up being the student.

And so this has been the hardest book out of the four to write, partly because when you have 20 co-authors, it’s a little like herding sheep with no sheep dog. And partially just because I don’t know why, but it’s taken me about a year and a half, two years. Book number two, I wrote in 30 days. Sometimes it just flows and sometimes it doesn’t.

But it is available pre-sale right now for the bargain of 99 cents, Kindle on Amazon. And we’ll release the actual book, my goal is July 31.

[00:16:12] Natasha: Congratulations. And in the midst of that, you’ve started a podcast.

[00:16:17] Don: Oh yeah. I don’t ever want to things get too dull. And so during the great stay home of COVID, I successfully canceled all of my speaking engagements, refunded all the money because that’s what happened with events.

And you’re in the event business. I know you can feel my pain. And so people ask me, how am I doing? I’m like, I’m very successful. I did cancel our free event, every dime, so jolly. And so I have words as you can probably tell I’m a talker and I thought, I’m just going to do a podcast. I love to inspire.

I love to motivate. I love to share. My mission is to help other people. And I looked around and some of my friends, Natasha had a podcast. I’m like, I can do a podcast too.

[00:17:10] Natasha: I inspired you a little bit? But I only started in January, but okay.

[00:17:15] Don: I moved pretty quick. I started in the end of March or the 1st of April, I’d have to look it up to see when.

And so I changed banners since we’re going to be on your show, but it’s gone very well. It’s a series of interviews and monologues where I share things I have learned from other people. I have no wisdom on my own, everything I ever learned that was worth anything I got somewhere, but it’s going very well.

And I highly recommend for people in a business to business.

Yeah, B2B. Podcast is a real good thing.

[00:17:59] Natasha: Yeah. It’s a lot of work. Have you found that it is a funnel for new business or does it more fill your own soul, your own education or is it a little bit of both?

[00:18:11] Don: I’d say a little bit of both. Right now, it’s probably heavier on helping me fulfill my mission of helping other people.

And it does fill my spirit and soul. My highest leverage activity is speaking with people. Yesterday I did an eight hour workshop with a bunch of business people, and that’s what I’m supposed to do. I’m supposed to talk on Zoom or talk face to face and help people move past whatever they think is holding them back and go and achieve what they really want.

I’ve not attempted to say that I’ll be reword that we’ve not pulled the trigger on the monetization strategy yet. But yeah, it’s coming. And so I think that a couple of years ago, I’m like the last man in America who got a cell phone. The last man in America.

[00:19:08] Natasha: I wouldn’t admit that out loud, Don.

[00:19:10] Don: It’s been about a hundred years ago, but I was like, no, I’m never getting that.

And then I’m the last man in America to get on Facebook, for sure. And after being in business 35 years, two years ago, I had less than a thousand contacts on LinkedIn. And so I just ignored.

[00:19:30] Natasha: You’re a late bloomer. You just waited for it to make sure to take hold. And then you dove in.

[00:19:36] Don: Maybe. I like how you word it. I love that. But I had some friends who convinced me to be a little more active. And so in LinkedIn, I had less than a thousand followers and now I have about 25,000. And so I think if you’re in business, you have to embrace social media. It makes no sense not to. And then if you’re going to embrace social media, I think words are important.

I think text is important. Audio is amazingly important.

[00:20:07] Natasha: Are you on Clubhouse, Don?

[00:20:09] Don: I’m on Clubhouse. And I think video is the king of communication. Why’d I say that? It is actually the queen. If we just go to the traditional and maybe queen’s top and king is second, I don’t know. But anyhow, video’s number two.

Number one is face to face, 42 inches apart, because when we’re that close and I’ve talked about this in two of the books, the communication pyramid, the more complex and or the more valuable the conversation, the farther up the pyramid, we should go.

So many salespeople today say why send 50 emails?

And it’s like, why? You’re wasting your time and you’re clogging the internet and they’re just deleting. And you’re irritating them. Okay. It’s easy. I’m like, yeah. Great. It’s easy not to sell something. So I want to move from text communication to at least audio because on audio I can emote and the listener can feel that emotion.

And we know that people act emotionally not logically, typically. If I can’t do audio, the next step up is video cons, what we’re doing. So Zoom, Skype, FaceTime, Google Meet, whatever. It doesn’t matter, but I can see Natasha smiling face and the twinkle in her eye. My brain is helping me figure out how to communicate based on the stimuli I get from the visual of video con.

But when you are face to face, there’s another element and literally my body and my brain and your body and your brain are emitting energy. And when we’re close enough, our energy mingles, and that creates another level of depth in communication.

So think about like this, if you were going to propose, probably a text would be the wrong way to do it. Email would only be an inch better and still horribly wrong. Okay. A phone call is better, woefully inadequate though. Video con, okay. If she’s in Afghanistan and he’s at home in Iowa and she’s deployed, okay. I get it.

But the really complex, the really valuable conversations, we want to have face-to-face because we want the richness, all, everything that’s available to us. We want to be able to use that to communicate.

[00:22:52] Natasha: Well, I don’t have to ask the next question then that would be teach us something regarding sales. So we just had the mini version masterclass. But I do want to ask you based on today right now in let’s say your coaching business and not look at the contact center, what is the biggest challenge you’re facing that you’re trying to solve for two?

[00:23:18] Don: So for my own business, let me twist that just a little bit. Okay. So the proven entrepreneur show is a piece of the consulting business, and I’m a big believer in this, start ugly. If you don’t have everything figured out, start anyway.

Okay. And so we had a lot figured out before we launched the first episode of the podcast. A lot figured out, oh my gosh. We’re fortunate to make iTunes do a noteworthy quick and that’s hard. But my vision for content creation includes 75 posts a week, which is not Gary V’s 63 posts a day. I can’t even wrap my mind.

I’ve listened to that talk of his for years. My mind is still blown. I don’t really know how to do that. We blog and YouTube and Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn and the mechanics. I am not a good mechanic, Natasha. I’m a good visionary. And if somebody is not selling the volume they want to, I’m so confident I can help.

I offer everybody a hundred percent money back guarantee. I’m that confident. I will bet. Even when they’re reluctant to bet I’ll bet because it works. The mechanics, like right now, the mechanics is driving me crazy.

[00:24:45] Natasha: I might have a tip for you Don. I may just rock your world. Are you ready?

[00:24:49] Don: I am always ready for a tip.

[00:24:51] Natasha: Write it down because you’re going to want to look at it after this conversation. So I discovered something that is, I would like to say it’s my secret sauce. And that it is going to really put me above and beyond my competitors, but I’m willing to say it out loud because I need to share the wealth.

There is an application called Lately.ai and I actually interviewed the founder, Kate Bradley Chernis on this podcast a few episodes ago that you should check out. But Lately.ai, I’m going to tell you what it could do for this podcast that we’re doing right now. So we have audio and we have video.

I can take the edited video, the one that I want everyone to see, and I can put it through Lately.ai and it will then piece out anywhere from seven to 35 pieces of social media content. Using the video and the audio and transcribing it. And then from there it will parse it out on whatever cadence you want to LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, with a one or two click of a button. And Gary V’s secret to his success is that they use Lately also. It’s worth every penny.

[00:26:11] Don: So love that. Thank you so much for sharing. I’ll reciprocate. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:26:17] Natasha: Give it to me.

[00:26:18] Don: Absolutely. So four or five years ago, I ran across Otter and it’s a recording application, but also transcribes.

So it’s about 90% accurate. Okay. And I don’t think we use Otter anymore. I literally wrote books using Otter. I would talk my book. It would transcribe it. I would turn it over to my editor and they would rewrite and edit. And that’s how we wrote books. So another is Descript.

[00:26:49] Natasha: It’s amazing. I couldn’t live with.

[00:26:52] Don: It’s a magic wand. Every time I say and so and of, which I do.

[00:26:57] Natasha: We’re going to get rid of it.

[00:26:59] Don: It’s out of there and I speak, and I’m fortunate enough to have great reviews, but people are like, oh, you say “and so” too often, I’m like, I’m literally thinking about what I’m going to say and my ratings are great.

And so I’m not worried about that piece. Is that a flaw? If it’s a beauty mark, it’s okay. And then Adobe has a new system. I hate that trial. What’s it called? Sensei.

[00:27:31] Natasha: Okay. I’m writing it down.

[00:27:33] Don: Yeah. And I think you have to be a developer. Fortunately, our tech team has enough status, but it is amazing.

And here’s the last one. And I love all this AI stuff. Okay, INK. I-N-K. That’s absolutely free for a version, but if you want to write SEO friendly blog content, you drop your text into INK and let INK start searching the internet. And it will tell you here’s six word pass I need you to fix. Here’s two title or heading tasks I need you to fix.

And it will tell you exactly what you need to do. And then it will give you a barometer. So it will tell you, okay, your score is here and now your score is there. And there’s some pretty cool stuff.

[00:28:29] Natasha: There’s amazing technology happening. I’m so glad you have a phone now, that you’re on LinkedIn, and that you’re now giving tech advice, augmented reality, artificial intelligence advice to other people.

It’s amazing how much you’ve grown.

[00:28:46] Don: There you go. Keep in mind, I’ve been around the sun a couple of more times than you have. And so I remember buying my first fax. Okay. So when I bought one, I think it was a thousand dollars for a thermal fax. Oh, they were brand new. And I remember buying the first computer.

I think it was a 386 with a 20 megabyte hard drive. And it was about $4,000. 4,000 then dollars. Not today dollars. And I can remember the sales person saying this will store everything that’s in the Library of Congress. You will never need more storage than this. You have more power in your smartphone today than Apollo 13 had when they went to the moon and back.

Don has the inside scoop on how to sell without selling how to improve your business and your personal relationships and how he approaches writing his books. For more information about Don, please go to the show notes where you are listening to this podcast.

For more information about me, go to my website, natashamiller.co. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you loved the show. If you did, please subscribe. Also, if you haven’t done so yet, please leave a review where you’re listening to this podcast now. I’m Natasha Miller and you’ve been listening to FASCINATING ENTREPRENEURS.

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